I agree, but I'm not sure everyone paying hundreds of dollars to attend a seminar falls into that group. I'm not sure these are the same guys on redpill, etc.

I agree.

I totally respect your point of view, and am not going to try to convince you to feel differently, etc. It's a rational and valid response, just not the one I always have (sometimes, I do, but not always).

There is no excuse for intentionally using alcohol to get a woman to alter her decision making. If she chooses to drink, that's one thing, but as a method of seduction, it's both unethical and something that very, very (very, very) easily leads to abuse.

I don't know. They have these rigid rules and guidelines and jockeying for status that a lot of them really don't realize they can (mostly) opt out of. I think it's analogous to the pressure women feel to be pleasing and pretty and thin and pliable. Obviously plenty of us have realized we can opt out of that, but…

I haven't and have no need to, since I've had my fill of one night stands and couldn't be happier in my marriage. Oh, and my husband and I got naked within two hours of meeting.

That can't be the majority of them, can it? Although I will say, that I feel incredibly sorry for people with personality disorders, having dealt intimately with several of them. In my experience, they suffer the most, even as they make people around them suffer; the intensity of emotion that makes someone act like…

That's a really interesting perspective. I'm sure there are a lot of psychological states/needs/processes that bring people in the door, but I never really considered this one. It totally makes sense that the process of dehumanizing women would relieve anxiety for some men.

It's tough out there and dating is definitely a blood sport. We make ourselves incredibly vulnerable, and we get hurt. That's how it goes, and it's the same for all of us, men and women, although some of us have better interpersonal and relationship (not the same thing!) skills than others.

I'm curious to see this evidence, but I guarantee you that cannot have a safe, loving, and mutually beneficial relationship with someone that you see as an object to be manipulated.

I agree with what you say, but I think that's EXACTLY what stops them from being able to actually connect with women, or to understand how well adjusted men around them can connect with women.

I do assume the vast majority of people require positive, judgement free, loving and caring human interaction, and most of us seek that from romantic partners.

Clearly the first priority is safety for their potential victims, absolutely, 100%.

I wouldn't suggest that you have sympathy for people you find repulsive, but do you really think that's an accurate depiction of all or most of them? Maybe it is, I don't know, but I think they're victims of the patriarchy.

That's an apt comparison. I assume that a lot of these guys can't articulate the need to for human connection and so translate it into sex (conquest) at any cost.

Right, but the way they handle their alienation only increases their alienation, which not only makes them miserable, but ALSO makes them dangerous to women.

Do you think it's fair to compare those guys hustling off the boat to Elliott Rodgers?

Totally. What's the alternative, therapy? How can help in learning how to connect with people (step one: see the person as a human being) be made appealing to men caught up in this malignant, hyper-masculanization?

I actually feel sorry for these guys. The more they get into this delusional stuff, the more unlikely it is that they'll ever make those human connections they desperately crave, which means the more attracted they'll be the bitter and delusional stuff, which means it will only be harder to make those human…

So if anecdotal evidence doesn't do it, what's your evidence for the catcalling rates of white men in America? (BTW, NYC has an incredibly high number of white men who were born in other countries and who have different cultural values.)