The sad thing with Sanderson is, I feel like there’s a MUCH better writer, like an actually great writer inside him, struggling to get out, but who is prevented from escape by Sanderson’s overelaborate lore and constant moral foibles about his characters.

I think some of the toxic fanbase is pretty easy to understand in Sanderson’s case. Mental illness is a common theme across his writing... so a lot of fans find characters that resonate with them on a deeply personal level even if the characters are otherwise fairly shallow. This is a surprisingly common response from…

Re: Crowley you mean John Crowley? I don’t think I’ve actually read any of his work but I probably should.

Just a brief note on one point—I think NK Jemison’s prose is a cut above. I won’t quibble over defining “dazzling.”

It’s hilarious how people think Shakespeare wasn’t accessible and is somehow the apex of English literature when the primary thing Shakespeare is good at doing is making constant sex puns in his work.

I used to love Sci-fi and fantasy but man the lore and absurd amount of world building ruined it.

But perhaps what you mean is “non-literary”? Because yes - everything that’s valued in literary fiction (which is not the majority of fiction sold, these days, note), like good, believable characterisation, having to something to say about the world or people, telling a good story effectively and/or in an interesting…

Patrick Rothfuss - and calling him “recent” is pushing it given he last published a major book in 2011 lol.

I mean R&M you expect because the characters are very much shit people. SU fandom is weird because it can be so aggressive and cruel that you wonder if they actually watched the show. 

Completely with you on this one, Lex.

This isn’t just about toxic fandoms though, it’s about fandoms that are surprisingly or oddly toxic.

The SU fandom also sent death threats to a storyboard artist on the show because she didn’t support their favorite ship- to the point where she quit.

imo the Steven Universe toxicity is a little more nefarious. Rick & Morty is cynical and ironic, and the fans are just as cynical and ironic. They’re still annoying, but at least they know on some level that they’re lame and stupid. They’re still toxic, mind you, but at least they’re honest about being toxic. Steven…

Translation: He writes “mormon”.

If it’s Strange New Worlds but set in the 25th century with Captain Shaw, Seven, etc. and it sounds good to me. I’m on the fence about Picard and Bev’s kid.

I had no idea. I’ve often espoused the idea that most fandoms end up with a toxic group being loud. I absolutely believe you, I know I tapped out of fandoms when I went to some forum for Gravity Falls and “twincest” was a topic of discussion a lot of people were in to. It’s a kids mystery show, for Chreebus’ sake. 

“Scob the Empire” is my new favorite thing. Feels like something from one of the Star Wars scripts Alan Moore wrote for Marvel UK back in the ‘80s.

Agreed, but reading Luna’s full quote doesn’t have me worried. Much of Andor’s praise focused on how it felt of Star Wars but not beholden to it. So in this case, I don’t think it’s we listened to the fans and there are more lightsabers. I think he’s implying they leaned into telling a more nuanced story because those…

After season 1 I trust the Andor writers to deliver, but “we listened to the audience” is about the most worrying thing to read about a Star Wars project. At least Luna didn’t specifically say “Fans”...

It's also good to note that being too combative in 1 or 2 can be deadly, resources are more scarce and the enemies are more difficult to kill (until you become better equipped, but even then).