I was using your words. You said Ramsey used the push to turn the sex into something done to Sansa rather than something she participated in.

Sexual intercourse without consent?

Ya, I guess you are just being stupid on purpose now, or you really are mentally ill or something.

I think it is very telling that at no point do you lay out these wonderful "alternatives" she had.

The rape you're cool with however….

if she didn't consent "to that awful shit" than it was rape.

Ramsay said he'd make her happy. I guess he was lying.

what is "consent" to you? If you put a gun to my head and demand sex, is that consent?

But with Jaime and Cersei, it was. They said it wasn't the intention, but as you see, they fucked up.

She's a really good "doppelganger" for Sansa, in the story. Same but opposite. Thanks for bringing her into this topic.

I don't agree that I acknowledged that, at all. And I'm not 100% sure I agree with your statement either. Sansa is going to "cede the initiative" on her wedding night to her husband, in a pretty stereotypical way, no matter who that husband is. That's her personality / upbringing / training / whatever.

Re-thinking some of this, and I think I may have been a bit too reductionist. I still think that the piece that we saw as viewers wasn't rape. But from what we know of Ramsey, that was just the tip of the iceberg. It's not like he's easily satisfied, and will just roll off of Sansa and go to sleep.

Good call. I don't think of Margaery as a protagonist (whatever that means in this story) – I forgot to consider her.

But isn't any "consent" she gives coerced, and therefore invalid?

I'm not talk about medieval gender politics. I'm talking about what the show has decided to do, the routes the show has decided to take.

She's been expecting someone to rape her for years, first Joffrey, then Tyrion, and now Ramsey has finally done it.

All of the "rape minimizers" are kind of funny and predictable.

I certainly don't put myself in the "legitimate rape" crowd. For one thing I'm pretty sure Sansa could have become pregnant whether she consented or not. :-)

In Martin's world, and the show has mentioned it, there's the bedding ceremony where people watch the newlyweds to make sure it's consummated.

Jeyne is pretending to be Arya, not Sansa,