Am I literally now the only human not into this show somehow? I've tried, I really have, to enjoy an episode here and there but it's just…meh.

Yeah, but in his defense he's been counter-argued from multiple directions all up and down this page and is responding to the response to the response, etc. of accusations of projection, and I know I'd be more exasperated and cranky than him were I in his position on this comment page.

Actually, I have totally seen carnivores attempt to win back vegans on numerous occassions, and frankly you wouldn't be as deep down this rabbit hole of a discussion as I am at this point if you weren't trying to 'win' something here either, no?

Not to pick a fight, but to hopefully help keep the discussion more mutually enlightening (I've been reading in fascination and learning a lot for over an hour on this page now) I think you're misunderstanding what the naturalistic fallacy is about, maybe?

I just want to point out that I haven't personally met a vegan who tries to convert anyone, though I won't deny that they obviously exist.

Hey Girard,

You're not totally wrong, but you're significantly misunderstanding the issue with animal protein here. To call it complete shit goes too far.

Applause for the godwin where the analogy actually fits somehow and illuminates the discussion a bit.

I don't think any nose candy could possibly qualify as fair trade considering the whole system of its production and distribution. Maybe stick to designer drugs made solely by workers' co-ops?

As much as I fear you're correct for a lot of individuals, I still want to set aside the dietary choice of veganism from the others as being distinctly and emphatically *not* closer to nature or more natural, as the many people arguing for its relative complexity, cost, etc. have made abundantly clear.

I believe I read that adults don't generally get much calcium at all from dairy anyway, and that cruciferous vegetables, some nuts, and cereal grains/bread are much more typical sources of dietary calcium?

Upvote for the gut-punch of rhetorical/ethical clarity you just gave me in this rabbit hole of a discussion.

"I wouldn't have known about Bialik's stance on the issue until you and a couple of others raised it."

"Try single-payer health care" would be my advice for counter-acting some of those perverse market incentives, but guessing from your screen name that's not going to happen any time soon where you're from…

No. Anti-vaxxers have no necessary nor exclusive connection with liberalism whatsoever. While I think the venn diagram between creationism and conservatism is i bit more solid, neither do right-wingers have an absolute monopoly on creationism either, for that matter.

Well, I'm truly glad you're feeling better - growing up in tick country I have read quite a lot about lyme disease and it's pretty terrible - but unfortunately what you're describing is pure anecdote, and should any of the dietary things you described (respectfully, I am very skeptical) or the herbal remedies you were…

Weird thing about placebo is that its impact is getting bigger, which is actually increasingly confounding the development of medical trials. The higher the placebo effect gets, the higher the statistical threshold that the drug or treatment in question must improve on to prove its effectiveness.

both ethyl- and methyl- even!

Yeah, and yet the same people will apparently pay through the nose to mega-corporations like Boiron for sugar pills and shaken water without any sense of irony or shame, because they couldn't possibly be motivated by greed or exploitation of fear, ignorance, etc.

Sorry, just to point out that "I'm just validly questioning what anyone hopes to achieve in this
instance" is answered in the same sentence with "80% or more of
the talkback is concerned with the anti-vac crowd."