WEBVTT

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- Do you think that

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these big consumer-facing
tech companies are redeemable?

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Is it just people at the top-
- Ooh.

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- Are, you know, sociopaths?
- Great question.

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Yeah, yeah.
- Or like,

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can this problem really be fixed?

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- Actually, let's divide
that into two questions,

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'cause I think it's actually,

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they're slightly different ones.

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So one is this question of, can
the companies be redeemable,

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and one is like, is Mark
Zuckerberg a sociopath?

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(Thomas laughing)

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So all these companies are the products

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of incentives, right?

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Like it feels invisible to us.

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Like it feels like the world
is just like the way it is.

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No, no, no, no, no.

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Like these companies grew
in the ways they grew

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because they knew that
social ledger was invisible.

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And things can really
change quite quickly.

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Like imagine a world where
Facebook had to publish,

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this is how many kids
are online at 12 o'clock,

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at one o'clock, at two
o'clock, at three o'clock.

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You know, the surgeon
general came out and said

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1/3 of all kids say they're
usually on their screens

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'til midnight or later on
weeknights, on school nights.

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In a world where all the social platforms

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had to report those numbers, you know,

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every week, here's how
many kids were online,

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10:00, 11:00, 12:00,
midnight, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00,

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they would figure out ways
to give people choices

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so they could go to bed earlier, right?

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Right now there are no incentives

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to keep a kid from
staying up till 3:00 a.m.

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and trashing their next day at school.

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Like making them go
through life half awake,

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'cause they were forced
to get up at 7:00 a.m.

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after they stayed up so late.

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In a world where there was
consequences, you know,

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people organized boycotts
'cause of those numbers,

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people did divestment
'cause of those numbers,

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there were lawsuits
'cause of those numbers,

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Facebook would figure out solutions

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to help people make better choices

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or even just make choices.

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'Cause right now, when
you're doomscrolling,

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you're dissociating,
like you're not there.

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- When we talk about the
choices that they could make,

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a lot of the time, what you hear,

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both from the tech
companies and, you know,

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people who are kind of
more on the libertarian,

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anti-regulation edge,

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is that these companies couldn't exist,

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they couldn't make products
as expansive and amazing

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as they are if there were more regulations

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slowing them down, getting in the way of,

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you know, printing money.

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- Yeah, so this is one of the reasons

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why like, you know, some
people get annoyed at me

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'cause I take such like
a moderate position.

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Like I'm not willing to like
go across a very specific line,

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which is right now, we do
not get basic reporting

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to make choices between
which products to use.

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And I'm not saying you can't
run your company this way

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or that way or this way.

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But I am saying people need to
consent to use your product.

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And if you don't get to have

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the relevant, meaningful information,

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like let's say you had those numbers,

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those like how late are
kids up on your products,

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imagine you're a parent and you're trying

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to decide which apps your kid can use.

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You know, you should have a
right to that information.

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And so the thing I always say to people

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who are, you know, a little
more on the libertarian side is,

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most libertarians believe the
function of the government

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is to set up systems that allow things

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like commerce to take place.

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Right now, the free market
is not allowed to operate

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in these spaces because
they can just lie to us.

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Right, and so I'm asking for like,

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let's pass some nutritional
labeling standards.

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Like if there's trans fats in
the social media companies,

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shouldn't we be allowed to know

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so we can choose other products?

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And I think that's like a floor

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that everyone should at
least be able to agree to.

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(air whooshing)

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(light music continues)